Cesar Millan, AKA "The Dog Whisperer" is a controversial figure. I've done some reading and have come away horrified.

He has a "dog psychology" business in Los Angeles, but the best I have been able to determine, he has no qualifications beyond having read a couple of books on the subject. I recently read an article by him on the topic "Small Dog Syndrome" and was very unhappy with much of what he had to say. While I agree that dogs are not people and the psychology of dogs is different, I disagree that a "submissive dog is a happy dog" and I further disagree that alpha behaviours in dogs should be entirely extinguished.

I attended a few dog training sessions when Puddin' was a puppy and quit because I thought the trainer was cruel. There was a particularly aggressive Yorkie in the class and when the man started hitting the dog and yanking it around by its collar, I ended my association with him (a lady with a Lab made him stop before I came out of my shock and jumped on him myself!). After reading some of Millan's own words about dog psychology and training, I am convinced that trainer was one of his disciples.

But perhaps I am reading the wrong stuff and misjudging...what do you all think about him and his training techniques?

Personally i watch every episode of his in awe!

I have never seen Cesar hit or hurt a dog and i believe when he says a submissive dog is a happy dog i don't think it is said in a bad way. Many of us here have often used the term that we need to be the "pack Leaders" of our pets and that is IMO what he preaches. A dog that can follow a strong leader is happy because he doesnt have to do the leading and disciplining himself. By "submissive" he doesnt mean afraid, he means that the dog has a healthy way of following it's leader. The dog should be happy to let you lead and him follow. the other night he had an episode with 2 crazy terriers and a lab. the lab constantly bit the terriers who were completely hysterical all the time because as he explained, the Lab felt she had to discipline them because hte owner didnt do it herself. as soon as they were calm there was no more biting.

then again, i havent managed to read his books yet but i would like to. When i watch him take an animal that is afraid and full of anxiety and teach it to live a normal happy healthy life i smile.

I dont believe this man who hit his Yorkie into submission learned that from Cesar Milan, i have never seen him hit a dog on his shows. control and discipline? YES. hit? NO! I dont think i have ever seen a dog that is scared of him. they respect him in a healthy way because of the energy he displays when dealing with them.

I dont think that understanding an animal is always something you can learn - i believe some people are just naturally in tune with them and speak their language.

I try and implement some of his ways in my home. Once I was battling to clip Triggers nails and he was screaming like a pig at slaughter even though I hadnt done anything to him yet! So i tried his way by rolling him over on his side, holding him down (gently i might add) and waiting until he was calm and submissive and then attempting to cut his nails. if he tried ot panic i told him "SHHHH" the way Cesar says to his dogs and as soon as he felt me touch him he lay still and calm and let me do what i needed to do. I must say after that I havent had any troubles with his nails again because he learned that when he was calm i couldnt hurt him accidentally and it was all over quickly.

HOWEVER, i will think about what you say and do some research and if something strikes me as being odd i will be the first to admit it and post it on this thread! in fact i will start by reading that article right now!

I have mixed feelings about him, I think he is very good with the dogs but dont agree with him on everything. Another lady who are VERY good is Tamara Geller. She has got a different approuch than Cesar but as I say she is very good.

I read an article that says he chokes dogs into submission with a choke chain and is being sued by the owner of a dog that was found bleeding from its nose and in an oxygen tent because Millan choked the dog too long.

Some pics in the article I read (written by Millan) showed a normally proud, alert dog labelled as "alpha behavior" and pair of really depressed looking dogs (heads and ears down) as happily submissive...I was horrified.

MOST of what he said about "small dog syndrome" I disagreed with, and was horrified by some of it because I felt it showed a significant lack of understanding of psychology...both dog and human...and mistakenly puts forth the idea that we should always be dominating our dogs, that ANY alpha behaviour on the part of the dogs is wrong. I emphatically disagree with that, and think that if your dog is naturally an alpha personality, you should work WITH that, not try to destroy it. Yes, you should be more alpha than the dog, but you should not try to destroy the dog's natural personality, only shape it.

I'll try to find those articles again and post links here.

Here's the article that includes info about the dog in the oxygen tent: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I was wrong about who wrote the "small dog syndrome," but the author bases her information on (and specifically refers readers to) Millan. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I disagree with the majority of this article, both in the psychology and the recommendations. While cautioning us that dogs do not think like people (true) she nevertheless anthropomorphizes in her article, making unwarranted assumptions about what dogs are thinking (they don't love you, they aren't protecting you, they are claiming you). Personally, I don't think there is anything wrong with my dog coming to me and barking when her food or water bowls are empty...she's not being the boss, she is informing me of something she needs me to know. And if she was potty trained to go outside, would this writer think my dog was being "alpha" if she went to the door and barked when she needed to go potty?

According to the first article, that trainer I dumped WAS following Millan's techniques. The article claims he chokes and even hangs dogs in a way that if you or I did it, the SPCA would have us in court. Yorkies have tended tracheas and I had misgivings on the first day when he told us not to use harnesses on our dogs, but to use collars, preferably choke chains...apparently this is taken directly from Millan's teachings.

I'm going to have to look up this Geller, but Millan seems just a little too "macho" at all costs for me and makes my heart hurt for those dogs.

It is tamargeller.com She wrote 2 books, which I would love to read. Go and have a look. She worked with alot of famous people,s dogs.

Very interesting topic! I agree with Kristin in that I support his ways, by ways, I mean what we see on the show. The only thing I disagree with is, no touch, no talk, no eye contact. And thats only because I am as excited to see Lola as she is to see me :-)

In terms of his qualifications, or lack thereof, That thats not everything and I dont think its essential, there's a lot pf people who are very happy and good at their job without qualifications and as of what see on the tv, Id say he's very good.

Having said all that, I do feel that we shouldnt keep our head in the sand by thinking gthat what we see on tv is all that goes on, I am not accusing him of anything nor do I even suspect, but there are a lot of behind-the-scenes footage I think.

I will read those articles when I have a chance, I have to get ready to go out now...

Hoping everyone has a wonderful weekend :-)

Well for one thing I have personal axperience with the fact that you do not have to have a lot of book knowledge about something to work magic. My youngest daughter breeds and trains warmblood horses (at only 24 she has already exported to France and is in the proses of exporting a youngster to Kenya) and have no training what so ever and does magic because she understands the way they think and have a certain connection that has left people many years her senior in awe of what she can achieve and read in a horse. BTW: there is not a crop or any severe methods involved she can just see what the horse is thinking and blocks it before it can even act on the thought. For instance in just the way the horse moves its feet she can see he is planning on kicking, I have tried and watched her for years and ever time she says " Did you see that?" I did not see anything. Even our long time vet once said after watching her work with a particar difficult mare (Severly beaten by its previous owner) to get her to box that he has never seen anything like it. Sorry off topic but still an animal.

Lastly I do believe that because I have followed and GOT what he meant that I have saved one of my babies life and now has a much happier and healthy dog. My boy needed serious medication on a regular basis and it is now two months without any medication what so ever just and understanding of what is really wrong with him.........ME................LOL!!!!!

I suppose though that the programs we watch are not always a true reflection of everything that goes on. I will look at those articles as soon as I get a chance for sure! I shall be more open minded!

I have read these articles and I agree there is some justificationin what was said. However I also feel the following and I have simply copied parts of the article I wish to discuss and given my comment:

He emphasises that there are no “quick fixes” but then he himself often supposedly cures a dog's negative behaviour in a very short space of time.

I dont think he gets a "quick fix" from the animals he visits, the ones we see on TV anyway. based on the programs i have seen some dogs have a simple issue, easy to get to grips with and based on the fact that he has been doing this for years he gets a positive reaction sooner than the owners would who have not mastered the techniques he has just showed them. In fact, often they go back to see how they family and pet is coping and the dog may be "better" but is still not all the way there.

He insists that owners should never get physical with their dogs then proceeds to teach the “Alpha Roll” and advises the use of choke collars, or even electronic shock collars in some episodes.

I cant comment because i have never watched an episode with an electric collar being used! I wouldnt like that at all! A choke chain i have no issue with if used correctly and put on the dog the correct way so it releases the way it should. Of course NEVER on a small dog!

yes, i agree there may be a few things people dont agree with. For me i use the pieces that I need to use that relation my dogs and i dont focus on the rest. I believe I have 2 well balanced, happy, loving, kissy, friendly dogs and I wouldnt change that for the world! I know some of my dog's behaviour is naughty, like Taylor leaping over the mesh on the security gate and through the bars to greet people and climbing out windows to go play with the kids in the complex, but if she didnt do these things i would be heart broken because her behaviour is just part of who and what she is!

But im going to keep digging and see what other people have to say! I have even joined a forum of his to see what he preaches when the cameras are off!

I think what bothers me the most...after the complaints of cruelty...the idea that any behaviour identified as "alpha" must be ruthlessly stamped out.

First of all, I disagree with a lot of the behaviours identified as "alpha" and actually encourage them: when Puddin' wants to be petted, she pats me with her paw; when her food or water bowl need filling, she comes to me and barks; when strangers come to the gates or are on the property, she barks. I don't consider ANY of these to be "alpha" behaviours, but communications. When we come home, she is excited to see us, and when there is a cat or large bird in the back garden, she is excited to see them, but in a different way. She sleeps near our pillows on cold nights, down by our feet on warm ones (where she can get the breeze from the A/C), and under the covers on really, really cold nights. I don't consider this "alpha" behaviour either, and I wouldn't for a minute dislodge her from her place unless she is encroaching on mine or Hubby's.

Alpha behaviours are those that challenge or defy my authority as her "boss." They don't happen often, but when they do, I take the time to sit down with her and reassert my authority, chiefly by compelling her to obey (I've been known to put the leash on her and make her come to me when she doesn't obey a "come" command, for example).

I do not want any of my dogs, not even my pushover Maltese, to feel they must be submissive. If they naturally have an alpha personality, then it is my job to help them learn how to bend to my will without destroying their spirits or trying to make them into something they are not. Once in a while I have to break out the thundering "command voice" to remind them who is boss, but it's small price to pay for preserving their natural spunkiness and boldness. It is a Yorkie's nature to be bold and forward and if I didn't want energetic, enthusiastic little dogs...if I wanted submissive little creatures that won't obey their instincts to ask for food and water when it is gone...I would not have gotten Yorkies.

I am going to do this in Afrikaans as I am having difficulty in expressing myself in English if you do not mind.

Ek dink dit is net 'n verskil in uitdrukking "You show her who is Boss" ek se net "ek is die baas" en in my huis baklei niemand en almal gedra hulle. Ek dink daar word te veel waarde aan die woord "ALPHA" gekoppel dit is eintlik net 'n kleiner woord vir "ek is in beheer hier" en dit laat hondjies seer kry deur mense wat dink dit is OK om 'n hond te slaan of te pluk aan 'n CHOKE chain.

My hondjies veral die tefies (die boys hou daarvan om styf teen my te slaap maak nie saak hoe warm dit word nie......LOL!!)slaap ook waar hulle wil en dit hang ook af van die temperatuur waar hulle verkies om te le, maar ek laat geen dominerende gedrag van die een oor die ander toe nie. Dit is hoekom ek daar is, ek is in beheer. Dan is ek seker ook in hulle terme die "Alpha" Ek het wel probleme met een van my tefies wat aggresief kan raak en sy kort toesig die hele tyd maar ek dink dit is omdat sy as baba seer gekry het en dit onthou, dit het niks met haar plek in die groep te doen nie.

Ek stem saam dat ons verseker nie Milan se mislukkings sien nie en wie van ons in watter bedryf ons ook al is het nie mislukkings nie. Dit gaan oor die suksesse in die lewe hoe klein ook al, as die bedoelings opreg is is die susksesse groot.

Ek het so pas 'n baba in die groep laat inkom sonder enige probleme van enige een van my hondjies af. Hulle is kalm en rustig en gelukkig en ek dink dit is al wat saak maak want ek is in beheer van hulle.

Sorry, I don't speak Afrikaans, so I have no idea what you have said.

This message is in response to TaylorWoods (Kristin's) post (I also dont understand Afrikaans so I cant respond either :-)

I have seen quite a few episodes where he uses a shock collar, I watch the show as often as I can so I have seen a few :-) What I have seen when he uses the collars is for the benefit of the dogs life. He has said himself that he would use other techniques rather but sometimes the electric collar is the best for quick conditioning. One thing I must add is that he ensures us that the collar is not to harm, just to give a fright. He and another specialist compare it to a vibration of a cell phone, unexpected. They stress that if you use one at home, you get a professional to help with settings

Here are some examples:

There was an episode of a dog on a farm and he always ran after and bit the tyres of a tractor. He lost an eye and broke a leg I think before and the owners were concerned about him getting killed. So he then conditioned him with the collar, giving small shocks when he got close to the tyres. He then quickly stopped chasing them.

In another episode they did conditioning with snakes. There was a dog who was bitten and died from a snake and the owner wanted to make sure it didnt happen again with her others. They got a professional to train the dog, they had a snake in a small cage and when the dog got close, it was shocked. very quickly the dog learned tp stay FAR away from the snake.

The other one I remember was not with a collar, but floor padding. This boxer jumped over a REALLY HIGH wall and ran off and owners were concerned he'd run away forever or get knocked over or whatever. He suggested these sheets of electric floor strips to stop the dog goign close to the wall and jumping over.

All the episodes I have seen where they use this type of conditioning are all because the dogs life is at risk. If it were me with the problem where my dog does things that risk her life, I would also consider this conditioning. Thankfully I dont have this problem - I hope it stays that way

I have never really looked closely at one of those collars but im sure they are a small shock?

It was once suggested to me to use a shock system on my Jack Russell to teach him not to run out the gates because he did it all the time (daily) and had no road sense and wouldnt come back when called. He would lie in the bushes and wait for the slightest gap in the gates as they opened, making us think he wasnt around and then he would dash out. It often took us hours to catch him and I even lost him once for 2 days after he had pulled his collar off, buried it and run away. One morning we were called by the not so friendly neighbour to say he had come into their yard, through the garden, in the backdoor and jumped all over their white linen and would i please come fetch him before they kill him! I did everything else...puppy training, daily exercise, neutering...all the usual things to try and nothing calmed him down.

So it was a beam across the gate and a sensor on the collar so when he crossed the beam it would shock him.

I refused to even try, believing it was a cruel idea and he was killed in a tragic accident about a month later while running out the gate. So although there is no need for anything drastic with these dogs, if in future i was ever faced with a problem where my dogs life was in danger again i would probably try anything.

BUT as you say. lets hope it NEVER gets that far again!

I never thought Cesar Milan could be so controversial! I must say, i sat and thought about it last night and i do think i treat my Yorkies quite differently to how I would treat a larger dog. I dont believe in EVER hitting a dog, i dont believe in ruling by fear but I am for example more strict with my fiance's Husky when she is with us. I insist that she listens to me even while the Yorkies are walking all over me right in front of her! I let them get away with all sorts of things that with a big dog i might not do. However, i also think that with a small, fragile dog like a Yorkie, a gentle hand is needed, some patience along with a firm set of rules that are kind at the same time

Also true I let my nieces sit on my lap but not my cousins! ha ha!

oh I would never put a choke chain on a Yorkie. My 2 have collars ONLY for identification purposes otherwise it is only a hraness for mine. In fact when i took that same Jack Russell of mine to training the woman made me put him in a choke chain. My mother walked out in shock and i went along with it and quit a few sessions later because i would rather have had a beast for a dog than put him in a choke chain! It didnt hurt him but i knew he obeyed only because he had no other option, NOT because he enjoyed pleasing me. As soon as that chain came off he was a horror again. I dont however have an issue with it on a big muscular dog but i dont like it when people use it as a power tool to force a dog into submission like this wman did. She yanked that chain and yelled LLLLLLEEEEAAAAVVVVEEEE at his like a bloody monster. as you would say it scared the snot out of ME, he was paralysed with fear and trembled and to me THAT is animal abuse 101!

You make some valid points sweetviolet you know, these days those shock collars are sold everywhere and i think many people buy them purely because they get irritated with the dog not because there is a serious issue. Some may think it is "cool" and i would only ever use it if it was a life or death situation and i was out of options.

Perhaps these "naturalists" arent all we think they are. I mean, when i watched the Horse Whisperer i sobbed as a kid because i thought (and still think) that breaking the animals spirit, tying it's leg and forcing it to lie down and submit to a human was just wrong. When i think about it now, the dog whisperer does the same thing just to a smaller animal.

However i pick up a lot about my energy towards my pets and i have used some techniques to calm them down so i will still continue to watch and be selective about what i implement in my home. my dogs will always be kids, even if they were Great Danes!

Sounds like you and I are on the same page with regards to training our animals. I had horses for years...started riding when I was 7 and I am now almost 64...and I've dealt with some stubborn animals. I never found it necessary to break an animal's spirit to get cooperation. (I never had to saddle train and untrained horse, though, just saddle mounts with bad habits).

My late husband had a huge white Percheron (a draught horse) that he used as a riding horse...my hubby was 2 metres tall and weighed 125-150 kg...far too big for a regular horse. The horse was broke to ride, but my hubby was a novice rider when he got the horse, so the animal played him like a violin!! We'd go out on the trail, him on the Percheron, me on a skittish little Arab mare, and he would lose control of his horse and end up back at the barn long before he wanted...the horse would just bolt and no amount of hauling back on the reins and yelling WHOA! did any good.

I cured the horse in one day simply by working WITH the nature of a horse. Horses go where their heads are pointed. They do not have binocular vision like we do because their eyes are on the side of their heads. So, when I got on the horse and clucked him to go forward, he tried to go back to his stall (we were in the parking area at the ranch where we boarded him). I grabbed the right rein and slid my hand down it as far as I could reach and hauled that horse's head to the side until his nose practically touched my knee. All he could do was walk around and around in a circle to the right, following his head. When he stopped I released his head, pointed him to the gates and clucked him to go forward again and, again, he tried to go back to his pen. More of the same. It took TWO HOURS of this before he finally decided that he was going to obey my commands and I never had a problem with him again. Because he thought he could get away with it with Hubby, he tried it again with him, but once Hubby employed the same technique, a bad habit was soon broken. (I have to say, though, that my arms and especially my forearms, were virtually paralyzed with muscle spasms for a week after that!! he was a STRONG horse!).

Dogs are much smaller than horses and can be trained with the same kind of firmness...you just have to be more stubborn than the animal! Be willing to invest the time and not take "no" for an answer. I always teach my little dogs to lay in my arms on their backs when I first get them. This establishes dominance (mine) right from the beginning. Lovey is being a bit stubborn about it, so she sits with me when I watch TV and I make her lay on her back in my arms like a baby. I restrain her if she tries to roll back onto her tummy, but it is done gently, accompanied with soft comments and praise when she does it. She now will stay on her back for a minute or more when I hold her. You don't have to choke a dog or throw it down to establish yourself as the alpha. With the exception of dangerous behaviours that require aversion therapy to stop, most anything you want to do with a dog can be accomplished without terrorizing the poor thing. It just takes time and persistence.

funny you mention that horse and his troubles. my instructor years ago taught me a similar thing. She always told me that if i was ever in trouble and a horse was beyond my control, i must pull the rein as if I were stabbing myself in the upper thigh and hold the rein in that position. If you watch a carnivore such as a lion catch an antelope when they grab it they twist the neck backwards and the animal, although alive, stops struggling while they kill it. as awful as that sounds i'm sorry! but it is a natural instinct in the animal world. so as soon as a horse has it's neck turned backwards it will do what you mentioned and spin for a short while until it realises it is a losing battle and calm down. No matter how strong they are they cant fight that movement.

I never really used it, i felt it could be harsh until i tried out a new horse a few weeks ago to lease and he kinda spins 360 degrees and takes off and i had to try it again with him and he was a real gentleman after that!

I also think it should be done in a non aggressive way. this technique is not used to terrify the animal. Think of a shark being turned over and going into tonic immobility, it's a natural release. it's not tying their foot up and running them until they cant run anymore from exhaustion and then standing on top of them and claiming victory!!!!

some elephants are trained this way, tied to trees and beaten until they collapse and people boast about having broken their spirits. an animal should never have it's spirit broken.

So with dogs, some people could take Cesar's technique's, having not been properly shown what to do and really hurt or scare an animal. whereas someone else might be able to pick and choose pieces that relate to their dog and use them constructively to improve the mental wellbeing of their pet.

you know, the other day Trigger had a hoof...BIG mistake. He has never been food aggressive, they share out a bowl and always have since they were puppies because I have nieces who love to touch them and do so while they eat as well and i need to trust my dogs to never bite anyone, especially a child. ok, they have a double bowl for the more tasty treats to make sure Trigger doesnt guts her food as well as his!

So i went to stroke him and praise him with his hoof because he was throwing it up in the air and having a great game and although he never growled, he dropped his body flat, face over this hoof, jaw clamped tight and he wouldnt move a muscle! In this case i rolled him over on his side and he still never released his jaw at all. But i never pinned him down, i never shouted at him, i just left him there until he relaxed and i stoked him at the same timeright across his face until he chilled out a bit! i have now taken the hoof as a treat and reward "toy" and i give it to him, let him get excited about it and then make him stop. we have practised it over and over to the point where now releasing has become fun and he looks for the praise and he knows he doesnt have to guard it because i will always give it back to him when he is calm and attentive. thart's what i like in my dogs, i like them to pay attention! He will even drop it for me when i tell him to. so in that case i took parts of Cesar's work and applied it my own way.

Taylor I think you got what I am trying to say. Every animal is different what might scare one might be mild correction for the other if I understand you correctly. I do not beleive in punishing an animal whether it is a horse or a doggy, just correct the behavior you do not want and reward those that you want. BTW: I think pulling a horse in a circle around him/herself is the best kept secret in the world because nothing can bolt in a cirlcle Training horses and correcting preious abuse is extremely hard work and requires a lot of patience, love and understanding.

We just should not believe everything we see on TV or read in a magazine for that matter. Take the good stuff that works for you but always follow your heart. Nothing ever got hurt by kindness, compasion and love.